alex roy: this week on the "roadtestament," matt farah and i discuss 12cylinder cars. can a used 12 cylinder be asgood as, or maybe a better value than a really goodyou used 4 cylinder? i have no idea. farah, you're goingto tell us. matt farah: yeah. alex roy: this week. [theme music]
matt farah: indian food isprobably the most complex food to cook in terms of the sheernumber of ingredients. alex roy: not as complex ashanging out with me after i eat it, my body rich withfaraway spices. were do you follow our show? matt farah: i don't know,@drive on twitter, facebook.com/drivetv,and follow me @thesmokingtire on twitter. v12s.
alex roy: can a v12, used,possibly be a better value than a really greatused 4 cylinder. matt farah: possibly,but it depends on which v12, of course. alex roy: you own a v-- i've never owned a v12. you own one. what is it? matt farah: it is an astonmartin vanquish.
alex roy: ok, besides the factthat it looks amazing-- matt farah: it looks amazing. alex roy: explain to me the auraand majesty and why v12-- matt farah: well, was it jeremyclarkson who said everyone should owna v12 super car? who said that? someone said at some point,everyone should own a v12 car. and i see where they're comingfrom, because the 12 cylinder engine is beautiful inthe way it revs.
it's perfectly smooth. it's a balanced engine, so youget basically no vibration whatsoever from the engine. but you get this amazing soundthat is very unique. they don't sound likeanything else. it's this even hum, that islike [roaring sound]. alex roy: they also cost 40%to 50% more than the 8 cylinder version of any car. matt farah: exactly.
alex roy: and in my life i havenever ever heard of any v12 car ever being reliableover time. matt farah: my car, the engineitself is very reliable. it has never ever brokenin any way. alex roy: because fordprobably owned aston at the time. matt farah: yeah, and it'sliterally two ford v6s stuck together at the crank. so it's two 3 liter fordduratech v6s which
make a 6 liter v12. alex roy: so we've got a listof really great used 4 cylinder cars, and somenot so great. and-- matt farah: some interestingv12 cars. alex roy: some interestingused v12s which are hilariously cheap. and we're going to discuss why,and which one might even possibly be a good value.
matt farah: there aresome gems in there, like this right here. so this is the car thatcame before my car. this is the db7 vantage. so when this car first came out,it had a supercharged 6 cylinder engine in it, which wasnot a terrible engine, but it only made it like330 horsepower. then in the early 2000s, thevantage model, they put the first version of the v12 i havein it, so the six liter
v12 in this car it made620 horsepower. and you can pick these up withrelatively low mileage in good shape for about $40,000. alex roy: reliabilityin this car. [laughter] alex roy: well if i recallcorrectly, this was the era of the really crap interior. matt farah: not as crapas you'd think. this is the era where theinterior looked almost
identical to a jaguar xk. alex roy: this to me seemslike the dark times of-- matt farah: no, middle'90s was absolutely-- before this car, the last astonsbefore this car, the boxy virage. alex roy: i like theboxy virage. matt farah: i like themin a weird way. i like the earlier versions. but these are nice.
alex roy: when i look at thiscar, you know what i see? i see a newer aston that'sbeen in a fire and slightly melted. it just seems shapeless to me. matt farah: well aston'sdesign structure, their philosophy is on rules ofthirds, like the height of this window versus itsrelationship to the ground, the length of the greenhouseversus-- they have all these formulas.
so that's why all modern astonskind of look the same, is because of that. but as far as an exotic car, 12cylinder car, compared to-- believe it or not-- compared toa ferrari 575 or something, this is rather cheap tomaintain and own. alex roy: interesting. matt farah: but it's just thelittle bits, like when my parking brake cable broke onmy car, it was $2,500. alex roy: of course.
you know something, i don'tcare if it's a good value. this is just-- matt farah: doesn'tdo it for you? alex roy: i don't-- i'm not-- matt farah: i thinkit's a good value in terms of 12 cylinders. the next car-- alex roy: before we go on, bythe way-- that aston, when's
the last time you saw oneof those on the road? matt farah: i sawone recently. alex roy: you never see thembecause they're just not sexy. this car has its place in myheart because in 2004, i drove one on a rally. it was a 2004 cl600 thatone year they did a twin turbo option. and it was unbelievably quick. and the power-- it wasan amazing car.
matt farah: wellthis is the 65. this one's even faster. so this car was about$190,000 new. alex roy: [laughs] matt farah: this is 600horsepower and 738 pound feet of torque. alex roy: the one i drove didover 200 miles an hour. this one is a 200 mile anhour car legitimately. and it has all kind ofneat stuff like air
suspension, and mercedes-- it's got good seats in it. but these things-- alex roy: you could get oneof these for $20,000. matt farah: the 65 isprobably 30 for the nicest one you can find. the problem with these, ofcourse, is out of warranty maintenance is terrifyingon a car like this. and people actually emailme a lot, and say matt,
i found this 65. i can get all this horsepowerfor no money. i could be driving a mercedes. god forbid anything breakson one of these. alex roy: think about lincolnboulevard in la. every dealership, theseare lined up. literally it's like$21,995, $23,995. and you can't give these carsaway because if it breaks, you might as well justthrow it away.
matt farah: if a turbo goeson this car, it's totaled. if the air suspensiongoes, it's totaled. alex roy: i would love to-- i also love the look ofthis particular car-- matt farah: oh, it'sa great car. alex roy: --and for $20,000,even for $30,000. alex roy: but i don't thinkit's [inaudible]. matt farah: and they put thisengine in the sedan, the s-class in this and in the sl.
and they're all stupid cheap. alex roy: but you knowsomething, you never see these actually driving aroundunder their own power. you see them on used carlots all the time-- matt farah: in used lots on rimswith something ending in $995 on them. alex roy: and it's this or alittle row of range rovers. matt farah: yeah, allon rims, of course. so instead of spending $30,000to 40,000 on one of these, you
could [inaudible] get this-- four cylinder superchargedlotus exige s260. alex roy: $35 matt farah: probably about $40to $45 for a used one, which is a lot for a 4 cylinder carwith basically no interior, but toyota engine-- alex roy: bulletproof. matt farah: bulletproof.
there's nothing in thiscar to break even though it is british. they're actually prettyreliable. alex roy: i was kind of hopingwe would come up with a 4 cylinder car that actually wascomfortable in the way that 12 cylinder cars are. i'm sure this is a great car. matt farah: but it'shard to find-- i mean, we were trying to findfour cylinder-- it is hard to
find expensive 4cylinder cars. and obviously, a lotus exiges260 is not a mercedes or an aston martin, butif you want a-- alex roy: but it'smore exclusive. matt farah: --quicksports car. alex roy: nobody has one. matt farah: they arerelatively rare. they're fun to drive. alex roy: and they will last.
matt farah: they will last. and maintenance is not sobad on them actually. alex roy: cool, butit's not for me. matt farah: not my style. alex roy: me neither. matt farah: but i'm not buyinga v12 twin turbo mercedes that's seven year old either. alex roy: what's next? matt farah: what dowe got next here?
alex roy: all right, this-- now you're talking. because i think the 8-seriesis the last awesomely beautiful aggro shark nose bmwdesign language up the wazoo-- i own an '88 m6, which neverruns, even though it's not-- even though it's a 6 cylinder. but this thing, i remember incollege when these things would go around, andi wanted one so bad matt farah: i love these cars.
i guy i know has an 850 csiwith a stick and it is-- alex roy: really? matt farah: --brilliant. alex roy: wow. matt farah: and his is thenicest one i've ever seen. and it's probably a $25,000 or$30,000 car, but you can get these things cheap cheap. alex roy: actually i sawone for about $8,000. matt farah: but what is lurkingunder the hood--
what is it, a 360-ishhorsepower, v12, i believe, maybe 380. alex roy: the thing is, ofcourse, if you're going to look at 12 cylinder engines fromgerman manufacturers, as unreliable as mercedes enginesare, it is a universal fact. if you don't believe in thenewtonian theory of gravity, you have not owned abmw 12 cylinder car and seen the deprecia-- it literally, the car drops aninch as son as you drive it
off the lot. matt farah: they'rereally bad. but these are great cars. and for $10,000 you buy one andyou put an ls motor in and call it a day. alex roy: actually, youknow something? that's a great idea. matt farah: yeah, an ls-- you know, if it fits a v12, itwill fit an ls motor, and
you'll have a sweet lookingbmw that actually runs. alex roy: you know something,for under $10, actually this might be an ok buy. it would be cheap. and then we have anothercheapie-- this guy. you know what's funnyabout the-- alex roy: the sacco-designeds-class. matt farah: --s600?
these things werethe tank tanks. alex roy: looking, but thereal tank tanks was the predecessor to this. matt farah: oh yeah, like the"coming to america" ones. alex roy: right, but theydidn't make a 12 of that, did they? matt farah: they did not. a v8 was the biggestyou could get. this one, you could get the 12,and it was also about 360
horsepower. and you know what's funny is-- alex roy: you never see theserolling around, ever. matt farah: no. the only one that i ever see, ihave a friend who house sits for madonna. and she has one. alex roy: still? matt farah: still hasone, and still--
alex roy: 12 cylinder? matt farah: yes, it's a 600and she still gets driven around in it. alex roy: can you imaginewhat the dealer-supplied fourth-party extendedmaintenance plan must be on this things? it must be more than the leasepayments for a 14-month lease. these are so stupid cheap, imean $6,000, $5,000 you're buying one of thesethings for.
someone actually, i think,brought one to a lemons race recently, because it waslike un-sellable. alex roy: it was aguy who actually brought an sl, i think. and they docked him 3,000penalty laps. matt farah: oh, it was thelong wheelbase, the sel. alex roy: they gave him like3,000 penalty laps. but if you think about it,actually, given the cost of these cars, there should belike above lemons, like, a
race series just for 12 cylindercars under $10,000. because clearly, there'sa bunch of them. matt farah: and they can justis set up dealerships on the side of the racetrackand do it. i wouldn't want to be anywherenear this car. alex roy: this might be abetter value than the 8-series, althoughthe 8-series is sexy and this is not. matt farah: no, because the8-series has some collector
value, a little bit. this has none. this is now a taxicabin the sudan. alex roy: yes it is. matt farah: or, of course,the coupe version. alex roy: this was really theworst of the mercedes two doors ever. and in the v12, you hadto be like a full masochist, like [bleep]
down blind. matt farah: it's russiangangster-- alex roy: the worst. i don't care if this was-- for $2,000, i wouldn'tdrive this. matt farah: yeah, but the nextcar is of course your other option, 4 cylinder, you couldspend a lot more money on a used fisker karma, equallymasochistic. alex roy: is this themost expensive 4
cylinder car ever sold? matt farah: i believe this tobe the most expensive 4 cylinder car ever sold. now i know it's a hybrid andit's electric drive-- alex roy: it's 4 cylinder. matt farah: but it is a 4cylinder engine under there. and new, $110,000-- we'refinding them used on ebay for $75,000 to $90,000. alex roy: i mean i lovethe looks of this car.
we've discussed it many times. matt farah: but you alsohave to hate yourself to own one of these. because if they're notcatching on fire, or breaking, they're-- i'm going to say it. they're not very good. alex roy: in five years-- if fisker's still in businessin five years-- and i don't
think they will be-- but ifwhatever happens, you could pick up a fisker in a coupleyears for under 20, say? matt farah: totally. alex roy: and throw ina corvette motor like your buddy did. you'd have the bestsedan of all time. matt farah: yeah, anls9 with a manual transmission in this car. you are winning at life.
alex roy: you know something,i bet you there are some salvage fiskers afterhurricane sandy. you could pick one upfor like, say, $10. matt farah: yeah,just the body. alex roy: just the body, andyou could have the greatest sedan of all time. can we go down there and look? alex roy: we actually should. matt farah: let's godown there and look
alex roy: we should find out. matt farah: i don't know, butlet's go back to 12 cylinder beater cars, with-- oof. alex roy: well this is,i mean, obviously, the "transporter" car. matt farah: yeah, the bmw 750. well, he had a 740, didn't he? because he had a manualtransmission.
alex roy: but it was bs, becausehe was shifting, and it was totally-- matt farah: "fast andfurious" shifting. alex roy: this isreally the best looking, i think, 7-series. matt farah: i liked it with thejames bond wheels, when it had the sport package. the bond wheels were good. alex roy: that wasreally cool.
matt farah: my friend's fatherhad one of these. and i remember whenhe bought it-- and i think it was a '97 or a'98-- he brought it home and was bragging that there weremore computers in this car than in the space shuttle, whichwhen the car is brand new, sounds like avery good thing. now all those computers are 20years old, and that prospect sounds unbelievably scary. alex roy: this car was famousfor having the dash with the
little square really dim leds. and they always died. the dash clusters over timewere just useless. matt farah: but unlike a lotof the other cars we're talking about, i see a tonof these still running. alex roy: yeah, butthey're 740s. they're not 750s. matt farah: they're not 750s. i don't ever see 750s.
alex roy: it seems like bmwobviously they don't sell nearly as many 7-series asmercedes sells s-classes. but it seems like thedifferential with bmw 12 cylinders versus the 8, is iteven greater than mercedes's differential? matt farah: i think mercedessells more v12s than bmw does. alex roy: but do you thinkthat the cost to upgrade to a 12-- what is it?
matt farah: its massive. alex roy: it's massive. matt farah: it's not asbig in a mercedes. because an s600 is $130,000,but an s500 is $100 flat or so. in a bmw, a 750-- or in this case it wouldhave been a 740-- was like $65,000 or $70,000. the 750 was like $120.
alex roy: i love this car. matt farah: it wasstupid expensive. alex roy: but i wouldnot buy the 750. i'd get the 740 if i could. but these cars, you could geta 750 in this generation for about $8,000 to $12,000. matt farah: that'son the high end. yeah $8,000 will get youthe world's nicest-- alex roy: for $6 to $7 it'sprobably a good buy.
matt farah: a good beater car? alex roy: very cool. matt farah: i could see it at $6to $7, but again, with the separate ecus for eachside of the motor-- one thing goes bad in thiscar and it's totaled. it is literally athrowaway car. alex roy: but it was the lastgeneration 7-series before everything went modularcomputerized. the e39 was the last5-series before
everything went modular. and actually, i have a lot offaith in bmws from the late '90s that i don't have today. matt farah: yeah, my dad has anew 750, and it is terrible. at least it's not a v12. what do we got next-- andthen of course, this. this. alex roy: you couldn'tgive me this car. matt farah: the 2003 bmw 760.
alex roy: this is cheaper thanthe prior generation 12 used, isn't it? i've seen this for like, $6. matt farah: this actual car wason ebay right now, 2003, 60,000 miles, $18,000, whichis just over 10% of its original price eight yearsago, nine years ago. alex roy: you'd have to be outof your mind to get this car new, used, warranty-- matt farah: they are thebiggest waste of money.
a, they're not thatfast for a 7. they don't look any different. i mean, look at this car. alex roy: horribly ugly. matt farah: horribly ugly,other than the bad-- the idrive and stuff, this is astraight up no buy, no give, no anything. or, you could get that. we have the expert.
that is a classy move. alex roy: i'm going to say thati know it's insane to include this on this list. but i've seen a mint conditionds for about $40,000. matt farah: really? alex roy: yeah, and youknow something? these things-- granted, the hydropneumaticsuspension, braking, and steering system isa little funky--
matt farah: no, waitdoes this have-- this was a 4 cylinder car? but your sm has a 6. but this is a 4. alex roy: but the thing aboutthis car is that it had a simpler hydropneumaticsystem than the sm. because it was anearlier system. and if you can get one in goodcondition, this is amazing car, super sexy.
matt farah: and theyride really-- i've driven yours. they ride amazing. i mean, this is a classy move. alex roy: everyone's going totell me i'm an idiot for including this caron this list. but-- matt farah: i don't care. i'd rather have a citroen dsthan a bmw 760 from 2003.
alex roy: well, you can have oneof these rusted and kind of running for about $4,000. matt farah: yeah, or a totallydecent one like this one right here, which looks clean,not perfect-- alex roy: probably $25 to $30. matt farah: ok, so thator an '03 760. no question. alex roy: but this or an 850? matt farah: ooh.
i'm still taking this. alex roy: i think i mighttake the 850. alex roy: because the 850, onlyone thing can go wrong. it's the engine. throw the car away. this, if anything goes wrong,you could get three 850s. next. matt farah: is that thelast of our list? that's the game, isn't it?
follow us on twitter @drive. follow us on facebook. there we go. alex roy: but wait, what didwe learn here today? matt farah: oh, we have tocome to some sort of a conclusion, don't we? are 4 cylinder cars betterthan 12 cylinder cars? i think the answer ispretty obvious, yes. alex roy: well, actually, to beclear, if you want to own
the magic of a 12 cylindercar, you kind of have to do it soon. because 12 cylinder cars, thereare not going to be many of them around in 10 years. matt farah: probably not. and there certainly are notgoing to be any cheap ones. alex roy: you know something,we completely forgot the greatest 12 cylindercar you can buy. matt farah: a ferrari 550?
alex roy: a volkswagenphaeton. matt farah: oh, the picture. there should have beena picture there. alex roy: we totally forgotto discuss the phaeton. matt farah: we missed it. alex roy: the phaeton had twovr6 motors connected. is that correct? matt farah: it's twovr6s to make a w12. so it's not a v12, whichis the basis for
the bentley gt engine. alex roy: but the phaeton wasmeant to be a competitor with the s class, the a8,the 7-series. matt farah: and it was in allrespects except the badge. in fact, it was better. alex roy: it's a reallycool looking. and you could pick one upnow for about, what-- matt farah: $15 will get you a12 cylinder one. $8 to $10 will get you a v8.
alex roy: and i bet you that isthe best value 12 cylinder car you can buy today. matt farah: probably, becausei bet you that volkswagen dealerships would be veryhappy to see you come in in that car. and they will treatyou very nicely. alex roy: and you knowsomething, and i actually do see some phaetonsdriving around. people love drivingthose cars.
matt farah: i see themin california. you know who was a hugephaeton enthusiast? alex roy: who? matt farah: jack baruth-- owned two of them. and mr. sylvester stallone, aswell, owned two phaetons. alex roy: well then that's wherethe episode has to end. i vote vw phaeton. matt farah: as the best12 cylinder car--
used 12 cylinder-- alex roy: yes. matt farah: i agree. best cheap 12 cyinder car youcan buy, v12 phaeton. follow us in all those places. we already told you to followus, especially me, @thesmokingtire. two straight men talkingabout cars. just two straight mentalking about cars.
alex roy: our bodies richwith faraway spices.
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